Episode 4 : Testo Junkie by Paul Preciado, chosen by Paul Grieguszies and Linda Sjøqvist

00:00:01: Welcome to the fourth episode of a book I love the podcast,

00:00:05: collaboration between womenwritingarchitecture.org madam eth GTA exhibitions today we're looking at testo junkie by Paul preciado

00:00:16: sex drugs and by politics in the pharmacopoeia graphic era,

00:00:22: in Spanish French then in English in 2013 published by feminist press.

00:00:30: York Paul preciado formerly Beatrice preciado who appeared in the book as bep20 the initials of Beatrice preciado and depending on which cock.

00:00:43: You have nothing we have several mine is still authored by beatriz preciado and from the 4th edition the name changes to Paul preciado

00:00:53: this book is a proper genre Shifter It Moves between,

00:01:00: not between it can completely Mix's genres in,

00:01:05: is in the sense of severe performatives in in how it can perform as a different form of knowledge production so it's it's Memoir

00:01:14: a local protocol of self experimentation

00:01:18: BP taking testogel it supper formative Theory a theory of the South or as BP introduces

00:01:27: the genre of the book of fiction that we can also get into a bit later it's history of the creator of gender it's a manifesto political action

00:01:40: against biopower it's autotheory it's a letter to GD who we get introduced to write the beginning of the book gym do star the artist and it's also has including a ballistic writing about

00:01:54: the Love Affair between BP and VD Who.

00:01:58: Do we find out I don't know we know is really want maybe don't find out I'm not sure that's so right it's just a shortly kind of introduce a book about biopolitics after WWII.

00:02:12: To the contemporary forms of biopower which he name is.

00:02:16: Farm Marko pornographic error and which were living now which means the Farmer and Palmer and power,

00:02:24: Gavin our bodies and subjectivities today so on the one hand pressure argues that bodies at Evermore regulated by pharmaceutical drug that pill here feet,

00:02:34: largely but also Viagra Prozac and other drugs and on the other how are collective imaginary of sex and sexuality is being defined by the porn industry and it's logic of a quick action as the logic of concern

00:02:49: this book was chosen by Paul Regis

00:02:53: and Linda who chose it in connection to the current exhibition at Kino evoland which is B format

00:03:02: next global expo running until Thursday at 16 land and it which is where we got sitting today Linda and Paul,

00:03:11: are joined by Alicia vikander from a k madam eth Helen Thomas from womenwritingarchitecture.org from.

00:03:21: Paul and Linda would you like to start by saying why you chose the book what touched you.

00:03:28: Hi yes I will call you now we decided to choose this book where.

00:03:35: Mostly talking about also different books.

00:03:41: What's the time in returning to the theme of about changing not being normed and at the end of a brainstorming we find out that this book of pork recipe,

00:03:54: is the one that makes the most sense because it's really talking about this.

00:03:59: Two different norms that it's stated that is stated by our Society today.

00:04:08: And something that he's a saying to book that if we explodes or change this or takeaway to only to wait to see gender and there's no more genders or no more.

00:04:21: Then decide which change completely and here in the.

00:04:26: With careful Martin in the Kino how long exhibition it's also like kind of changing the space at what it used to be and what it's going to be.

00:04:35: I need again in explaining place or space.

00:04:42: I totally agree and I think that one specific like thing was the context of the street and how overwhelmingly noisy IKEA taking,

00:04:53: sometimes even scary it is an kind of translate that into text maybe,

00:04:59: do funny reached a version of testo junkie because it's just so much to bear.

00:05:07: Chapter by chapter you you hold on because there is definitely like kind of Foundation of.

00:05:16: Which struggle which chapter comes after which chapter you know there is a story being told but it's it's so much that you you can have,

00:05:27: can I get heated in the in that kind of conversation that that is having with themselves and with the people that surrounding him without the door,

00:05:37: in our case the The Love Affair the sexual affair with VD.

00:05:46: Is so complex and an almost sometimes you think just toxic that's already like about it because,

00:05:53: that's what I feel like when I and cross this area in inch.

00:05:58: I think that having a discussion about tested and he's so interesting for me and the oldest in the group and I think.

00:06:07: In a talk about something which is cost generational having a casino to conversation about it's really really interesting because,

00:06:17: you know for me this book is really a world-changing book because it introduces a way of thinking about gender that really is with very very new to me when I Encounter,

00:06:28: in a dis idea that really helped me to understand.

00:06:33: What the issues of transgender are that gender is a construct in the hole ideas.

00:06:39: It's so artificial that it can be really taking me created through chemicals through drugs.

00:06:50: Yeah I just found it locked if you go and in a remind me when I've in my in early 20th and can't afford food and how that he clearly maintained,

00:07:03: and I think it is about.

00:07:06: Yeah but I was reflecting upon it I think it's really very much about this issue of bound with and you know we make you know what a world creates so many boundary for a Norm that what's normal what is it normal and both of these writers and

00:07:21: break down those boundaries.

00:07:23: Unused history of a means to do that you know about the about how things change in terms of

00:07:32: politics and structures of knowledge in Defence of Foucault but I think what's interesting about preciado is it it's about 17 much more

00:07:42: I thought you was saying I think when you in your introduction it's about the lived experience and that is just amazing if I can add,

00:07:50: I seen his book is always talking about AI,

00:07:53: and one chapter is really like kind of almost a scientific the way he explains and has references and someone and then it smells.

00:08:01: Or Express interest in the story of himself and it's cannot really,

00:08:07: putting up to day today life of February that he writes about and I think it's also really way more striking than just reading theory about he or it's there it's about.

00:08:21: My person my experience and how.

00:08:24: It's different and I think this is us a really strong in this book and I think as we are Reading in the first person it's also way more personal herself as a reader.

00:08:36: Then I do books and also you were talking about Foucault and I was listening to different podcast or SO14 with their login bastard and focus and they were talking about,

00:08:49: just before Cavan for doing,

00:08:54: the seminar talking about Theory between sex and gender which was not really talking about in his,

00:09:02: series in books and he said he missed it but he's nothing wet Focus said was wrong but he wants to do like an add-on I like an addition he's experienced and nothing yet this is really interesting.

00:09:14: Again I agree and I think that like one word or at least a couple of words said

00:09:20: that I think about is like history of techno sexuality adding that techno from techno gender to history of sexuality which is a Foucault body of work,

00:09:32: understanding that again an add-on and then again that kind of combination with that products all of of his life.

00:09:41: That mixture it wouldn't work and then somehow it does and,

00:09:46: you kind of can't wait for the next chapter as I said and then you go from work from term 2 term 2 term and it it keeps justifying each argument and making it stronger my favourite words that or like my.

00:09:59: Themes are when you take something completely heteronormative at first the pill,

00:10:04: or in terms of the book that I first read from preciado being upon a topia the bachelor pad and making it the most curious thing you could ever imagine something completely home next will there's something homosexual be high,

00:10:19: you know men on.

00:10:21: Avoided Men full of steroids in in a gym it is just something very gay about that and then he just put it to perfect,

00:10:31: words for following up in that kind of story setting that I just really.

00:10:38: Again it's overwhelming too much but it you need to follow through to to get to the conclusion another whether I really liked was the auto guinea pig.

00:10:48: I started to get inspired by that and take it on to myself to also perhaps an experiment with drugs or with pharmaceuticals but with lives with with toys with with.

00:11:00: Would sex and Whitwick sexual experiences and it makes very it you need to kind of write that down in some way that was you again you'll forget it so I understand I appreciated that,

00:11:13: junkie maybe just to add a.

00:11:18: I would follow up with Helen said for me it was also like a can of eye-opener and.

00:11:26: Very good in explaining everything in a very.

00:11:31: Can of radical way but in the same time then to this personal experiences may kiss it cannot.

00:11:40: Lightness even though it's like super dramatic in a way which I really.

00:11:47: First connected to even though I didn't like.

00:11:53: The same life I felt really close to his personal life in the way and I.

00:12:00: Then sometimes felt like I couldn't catch my breath especially when the text then got really theoretical again I was.

00:12:09: Reading is very fast and I couldn't even breathe while reading it because it's like so many words,

00:12:17: and so many things that were all connected together and I was asking myself like who am I what I'm at doing here who's controlling me,

00:12:28: yeah I've I thought it was like really experience even to read this book agreeing experiencing also.

00:12:38: Experiences from the past like over and over again or moment where I fell.

00:12:44: Maybe I felt controlled by the norms of society but only understood.

00:12:51: Now well reading the book kind of this another hamster in the wheel feeling and.

00:13:01: Is can of hurt me also I said a little bit.

00:13:05: Naive sent and done and I mean it's quite powerful if somebody makes you feel a feeling like that when you're like just.

00:13:16: Going over words that are like black printed on some white paper I mean it's crazy I was almost.

00:13:25: Sometimes I had to put the book aside and.

00:13:29: Just let it in but then let it out again because it almost made me like a little bit dizzy yeah super powerful words,

00:13:38: I mean that's what I mean by will changing a minute she doesn't literally change the world if changes your relationship to the world and I think that this booked in.

00:13:51: Might delete interested if you're the youngest you know we're both of,

00:13:54: yeah that's fine if that's what you did to me that you like a physical blow and the Innocence this reminds me of weirdly of hearing man tells and she write,

00:14:08: very much about the physical world she doesn't mind I mean I think that this is a very interesting way of writing of using.

00:14:15: A very very visceral physical material descriptive world in order to carry across theoretical thinking.

00:14:28: From what has been said in this representation of the body like it goes through this transformation take,

00:14:42: sister still on so he goes through different.

00:14:45: States of masculinity of femininity and and he says so he is like Mum and where,

00:14:55: he's not anymore a woman you are just a number from different perspectives and this I linked with.

00:15:06: Who was the architect of the the body.

00:15:09: In the city in the physical world and architecture actually in the city and it's interesting the discussion with a friend of mine if you weeks ago and you.

00:15:20: Telling me it's time I look it's he's not an architect and he was saying I it's time I look at the building I'm always asking myself if it's a masc or fem.

00:15:32: It's interesting because it's a bad perception and for me I couldn't I couldn't see the billing without thinking of.

00:15:41: The Old process be high

00:15:43: thinking of the clients of thinking of the Investor behind thinking of the negotiations that had the only one that had happened,

00:15:56: what you see in the Facade of the building to the that is the result of.

00:16:02: I mean I like this photo of the Facade and somehow we know the the Facade is being like that may be defined and then.

00:16:12: One of them striking images of the coronavirus and images and graphics in the book and drawings and come and one thing that struck me was this comparison between the optical.

00:16:26: The drawing of the pill which is the one over the other and then put up the kings being this external architecture of disciplinary architecture and the building the internet,

00:16:40: disciplinary architecture and this transition between,

00:16:43: nice external display have to do the internal of the pill and where other than preciado saying the weather the way for resistance is,

00:16:55: that we can internally also go against this this in turn architecture which becomes the manifesto of the book which is this I speaking and taking to the throne and in a way that say,

00:17:09: very experimental I mean such a few kodi and my teeth and.

00:17:16: And when I'm eating the can I had to check it with the kind of like first that I've had an interesting that he didn't mention but I.

00:17:25: Who and the idea of the full of the excess energy of the world and underneath ideas,

00:17:36: I mean it's a real critique of capitalism and the capitalist system and and it's using this energy and if notion of pornography,

00:17:47: I don't know like you know how I felt that they spend two days just having sex you know that is a totally unproductive activity doesn't contribute,

00:17:57: to the 2 to the 2 to the projected blood in any way whatsoever literally makes me think of that idea Potter,

00:18:05: and deliberately wasting energy as a means to power and I think that is so inherent in in in w preciados do,

00:18:15: I wonder if it's a kind of philosophical snobbery against that I because I mean I mean he studying philosophy in the bookies talking about that I know that,

00:18:27: Paul you've made an amazing glass of glossary of words which I think I really need it for philosophical you know when it when I think of.

00:18:38: Panopticon and I really love just for this I think it's Jeremy Bentham prison design actually but they're nice.

00:18:50: So basically what also trying to mention is how the disciplinary societies going to a control Society and I'm sometimes.

00:19:01: I don't know if I always agree and maybe I'm just.

00:19:05: Maybe at non-standard well enough but I still see myself not having a choice and being disciplined by a.

00:19:13: I don't always feel like I have that choice in that what is may be anymore.

00:19:19: In the setting of think the biopolitics is that kind of general word for caring and and what kind of economy that fills.

00:19:32: What is the material not material or immaterial have a not confusing me now but it just become so embedded with the body.

00:19:43: Edgeworth nothingness and.

00:19:47: Then you get very very scared as kind of Alicia says that I did very fair die.

00:19:55: It's open calculated for me it's not like there is that choice,

00:19:59: I wasn't asked I was told and that's I think the scariest had you done that thing,

00:20:05: you had you've had this free Connor me when no everything I was selected for you in some sense and that's why I think.

00:20:14: Maybe what I connect to bedtime,

00:20:24: that to me is really very sexual thing you know it's completely it's a way of not being in this world,

00:20:33: is is being in a two-day sexual escape from Sunday the 5th,

00:20:42: yeah it's true and also to add on what about we saying in,

00:20:47: like the perfect already made to put us in production place after like we need to go and work and then you need money,

00:21:00: this is the point when you decide to not be productive like you cannot almost leave because then you don't win money or,

00:21:09: you cannot do things and also,

00:21:12: you see his life is with his kind of go working hours writing is philosophical key receiving money from the French States because he's doing a PhD,

00:21:23: but then he's also like buying his testosterone and he can only do it it's because he can buy this testosterone it's so it's so many question at the time.

00:21:35: Can we managed to find an equilibrium today.

00:21:40: To not to work with just enough to relieve and to not be productive and be productive.

00:21:47: And I think it's really it's really difficult we all asking ourselves also.

00:21:54: Is the same as a decent everyone when I read that I was like I didn't choose really I am I was putting the case.

00:22:02: And this is the paraffin that I did question it but it's so not as much as the.

00:22:09: Announce profounder to book those but I think it's kind of prediction it's almost a bit sad it's not more in the book because I think it's really interesting enough for today.

00:22:22: Production of women being at home caring for the family and doing on disc work that is not springing money,

00:22:32: to them but helping the account.

00:22:35: Absolutely he makes reproductive work productive and that's and I think you really interesting aspect of the right.

00:22:44: Manchester the question young architects working in the Reading of this text that I know preparing to talk you wear mentioning system do pizza,

00:22:57: I know that it's a text you since the euro to your speaking about it,

00:23:03: there are lots of connection to me between the 20th as been for women

00:23:08: writing architecture star multiple time annotated is one of her five and it's interesting to understand,

00:23:20: how she wrote M14 7AS something like that how are writing sorry.

00:23:29: Politically challenging contemporary.

00:23:33: Yeah I think we kissed in the design with really striking is late she gets out of the case that as a woman in the Middle Ages she decided to write a.

00:23:45: And she comes out of this case of doing a man's work that only.

00:23:51: Then I doing it and then she's also criticising this book I think.

00:23:58: I don't recall the name but that was really amazing gymnastic and she also is coming out this.

00:24:06: They saying yeah it's not really writing and she's already talking about like woman.

00:24:13: Feminism in the way even though she doesn't use the word and she's also talking about building a different world.

00:24:21: Where woman.

00:24:24: She's explaining the different or telling stories of different really important women through history that were a little bit forgotten.

00:24:34: And that's already in the middle ages and of course it's not really about 10 minutes.

00:24:41: 4% result so kind of doing the same by say going out of the gender and saying maybe we shouldn't we shouldn't have gender's anymore and should be way more fluid.

00:24:53: I think I say no because I also going out of her case of being a woman in the middle ages and writing and going in she.

00:25:03: The difference that imagining a new world then put my server is kind of really applying his Fury to his life.

00:25:13: And this may be the difference between of the similarity of trying to build in also focus on trying to keep his.

00:25:21: None gender are to be none gender specified in I was saying I'm now I'm in but I'm not really a man because I was a woman and I'm in between.

00:25:33: Anything that's so sorry.

00:25:36: The speciality I think it's also really interesting that reminds me of one specific scene in the imagine it in the book he just looked at his arms and says this gonna be my genitals if I said.

00:25:51: This conventional way of creating a sexual organ for transgender men and maybe I don't want to follow that's what maybe I was,

00:26:00: build my own you know sex my own organ and I really like that because I kind of things one word that inspired me or inspired me.

00:26:10: I'm with my choices in insane my profession if you want to give it a bold name is appropriation I don't have to follow the.

00:26:18: Instruction manual of the testosterone because it says only 6 miles are 11 miles with who have sex with women I like to use this pill,

00:26:31: like Cristiano and say I will just use it and see what happens and make it work for myself after all,

00:26:39: think you know like this is a sign that you don't do that,

00:26:46: maybe following that will book sometimes there's a darkness even though they are scientifically,

00:26:52: recommended in that in a biopolitical sense you don't.

00:26:57: You can start questioning certain things if if they are if you.

00:27:05: Take That Pray Ciara point of view and see how Society wants to confirm you to that male and female bubble and.

00:27:14: Eventually break out of it and you can do that with anything you know you don't have to use that object for its conventional purpose all the time.

00:27:22: I also think that is thought about 40 years like an experimental and fluid space so interesting and.

00:27:31: The connection between I think Jose Esteban munoz coming to the book and interconnectedness of sex and drugs and I see you.

00:27:44: Connection like it's very for me like is Helen mentioned I'm the youngest probably in the round and have a lot of people around me like experimenting with draw or.

00:27:58: Experimenting with different kind of medications also and.

00:28:06: I mean I'm not here to advertise drugs but I feel that the.

00:28:14: The connection between sex and drugs is weirdly likes so through in a way that.

00:28:22: We are given drugs like prescribed drugs that we don't know about really weird.

00:28:29: Go to doctors prescribe or something and we take them in the.

00:28:35: Can of hope that we get like better or whatever but nobody is like trying out what works for them always following.

00:28:46: Usually following like trains or some advice from somebody and like listening to the homebody would be I think.

00:28:56: Really good choice to make especially free Norse elves from.

00:29:02: Choices that we may not have made it not anybody else would have told us yeah I just thought it was a good comment from.

00:29:12: Yeah I know what you're saying which I think is a really interesting point in the preciado but when he starts to talk.

00:29:21: The Witchcraft and Silvia federici argument and going back to mediaeval times and and I think that's really interesting because again and give this historical.

00:29:33: Where you know we start to realise that the are constructing modern constructed world the outcome of which is a farm.

00:29:44: Pharmaqo pornographic.

00:29:56: Know which court is very much about being aware of your body if it did he say and become so much so used to being passive

00:30:05: in this sense and passive consumers

00:30:09: drugs and medicine and also when he talks about the middle ages and as you said there it's the like the basically basically some basis of today today is €18,

00:30:22: yeah it's a select you because they took away the right for women to do this work and the wear which is because they had certain knowledge that wasn't really appreciate it as.

00:30:34: Waking up.

00:30:36: Do something productive to had another knowledge of with the medication and plants and nature which men didn't understood then they got scared then.

00:30:47: I think this is also to go again with your question how I do as an architect today I mean only working since a month but yeah it's I think it's like,

00:31:01: well we are on your head reference by men and there was constructed by Man by Man references.

00:31:11: And as he says he as they assume sexual man which we don't know actually,

00:31:20: and yes sometimes always ask myself how,

00:31:24: it's maybe super simple but like how would I live there or how would I move in this space that had to sign now.

00:31:33: And I think something when you work in office with a more men then it's like a like some.

00:31:40: You design and someone in to find all nice and then you look at it and you like oh I would not feel comfortable in there and then you have like I say it or,

00:31:48: I think it's not practical as a woman because you know you do is often and sadly your,

00:31:55: you must like you to do care work at home so it for this and it's not practical se problems and son and then they like oh yeah you're right you're right or point but it's so simple.

00:32:08: And it's only been a month but I think it's so one of the biggest surfing.

00:32:16: Small difference that I can see next to the studies where we a lot of people already talking about it and it's kind of integrated in.

00:32:24: Wallace with the students.

00:32:27: Maybe it's way see the link today I was wondering how you get to wear off of this and how.

00:32:35: Maybe I make the Linker so22 the text from this is how you read,

00:32:40: is texts from Emmerdale lot of connection between the two texts from the past how they make you aware of certain things today,

00:32:53: I don't know there is something in in the writing of Christine de pizan where she speaks from her perspectives

00:33:02: experiences as a woman that her husband died and she had to take care of the children on the Holden and she's criticising,

00:33:13: muesli like how women are treated at the time but I found two things like her she the instruments she uses in the writing,

00:33:24: you say she was finished with how she always talk about her criticising but she's also using a legal research thinking the in the book of the city of ladies wear,

00:33:38: it's a bit like coming into dialogue with the maybe problematics that,

00:33:45: not from things that she experiences have and it is also there is this in destruction,

00:33:54: is the Genki there is a lot about that I said he speaks about it all.

00:34:00: Perspective what's happening to human and protecting to a social economic context in the history but how.

00:34:10: Actually both of them are really have fun experimental in the way they used to writing and how this is a way to think about this political regimes.

00:34:24: Structuring.

00:34:27: I think he came up early when you talk about 15 to 15 that she was making a response to a piece of writing by a man and I think that's often,

00:34:37: strategy that is Mary wollstonecraft seen the same thing so was so kind of de la Cruz,

00:34:44: not much later than the 15th of December in Mexico so I think that is kind of like.

00:34:52: Reaction to 22 the male structuring of the world's and and I think what your point that you make Emily about the way of the kind of the form of the writer,

00:35:03: so you know is it if it taking on the phone,

00:35:07: kind of scientific or objective form that kind of a bale distance from reality or is it this much much closer engage a bit of Engagement nothing that's in their right,

00:35:22: you know a little poetry in order to to communicate ideas,

00:35:29: it's a rhythm of a I think you said at the beginning of intense physicality and.

00:35:37: Stepping back and it's hurting it's a kind of much more photos and if so oracle philosophical discussion and for your company go in and out and it's very powerful.

00:35:51: I think another maybe lineage that I feel preciados continuing which is also this writing with.

00:36:01: Being induced by a by drugs or in his case hormones which he know he could.

00:36:11: From.

00:36:13: Prices of Barrows to mainly also the kind of tradition of of male writers where feel like,

00:36:21: he's as performing a certain pups masculinity in writing but really but completely,

00:36:31: sublime sublime transcendental experience in the writing and then literally you no shifting that.

00:36:44: You mentored mail and I don't want to always like I just gone to bed in white male because that widen a heterosexual.

00:36:54: I think my cat is the white male heterosexual bonus like the most important thing.

00:37:01: More important than the death of an African people you know from malaria like we will fall.

00:37:09: Create that that that that that would is that put inside out and that was another favourite of mine that before anything else play.

00:37:22: I realise it's true but it's it makes you sad.

00:37:27: And angry and want to not read the book anymore and then,

00:37:33: get your soaked on again you hooked on like probably him with his testosterone I'm hooked on to this book till the very end and I can only suggest,

00:37:47: to read this book of course it's 430 pages but you're ok 430 page pictures of erection and frustration.